If you want to attract an honorable lady, be an honorable man.

Monday, November 5, 2012

Why I Won't Be Voting This Year.


(Warning – LONG POST.)  : /

Yeah, kinda shockin (not the fact that the post is long). I, for the first time a legal adult and able to vote in a presidential (Or any) election, will not be voting. I have always looked forward, to with a fair amount of composed excitement, the day when I would be able to walk into the crowded and hushed room, and be pointed towards a small booth where I would cast my opinion to help change the country.


 

And the first year I am able to do it, I am turning the opportunity down.

Why?

Well, that takes a heap of 'splaining. Ready?

I am going to try to keep this short folks, but I can tell you right now it is NOT going to be short. So for the present, just be glad this is the edited version. : )

Before we can ever even raise the question of whether or note it is Biblical to vote, we need to go further back and ask the question of whether or not we even have a Biblical system of government. No, I am not talking about today, in our corrupt society and corrupt political leaders. I am talking about the government how it was originally set up. The Constitution is our ( or suppose to be ) blueprint for our government.  Christians for years have held up the constitution as this monumental document of Christian freedom,
letting us have the freedom we were all born with, and.... and........

They rave on, but actually, I am not so convinced. 

I am going to lay out ( or try to at the very least ) what I think is wrong with our present government ( not actual today politics, but the ideal that is laid out in the Constitution ), what is Biblical government, and how to get there. After that, I hope to lay out many of the objections that I have heard to this plan.

Let me tell you now folks, you might be in for a shock reading this, and let me tell you, this has been a bit of a shock for me as I learned this. 

If you were anything like me, you were raised with this notion of the Constitution being this document that was almost on inspired status, and thus almost on par with scripture. Granted, nobody actually ever came out and said that, but that was the attitude that was communicated and transmitted, and I was a firm believer that our Constitution was the epitome of Biblical government, and here, in the U.S. was embodied the soul of Biblical freedom, government, and spirituality. 

I mean, after all, the Constitution says I have all the right I please to carry whatever guns I please when I please. Could it get better than that? 

Well, as I get older, and have looked more at the Constitution, the less I like. The more I look at scripture, the more I see a different form of government. But before I propose a new boat to float our country, I am obliged to put a few auger holes in the mental block of the bottom of the present one, to show you there is even a need for a new government. Again, I am not talking about the way things are run today. Even unsaved people don't like it and want to get back to the Constitution. 

But should we? 

Well, here goes.

Our Constitution lays out a government with three branches. Executive, Legislative, and Judicial. The Executive branch is Comprised of the President and his cohorts. 
From Wiki....


The top leadership roles of the executive branch may include:

~ Head of government—overseeing the administration of the state, managing the bureaucracy, and enforcing the law
~ Foreign minister—overseeing state's ambassadors, managing and determining foreign policy
~ Commander in chief—commanding the state's armed forces and determining military policy and the cabinet ministers.

The Legislative branch~ (from http://www.whitehouse.gov)

Established by Article I of the Constitution, the Legislative Branch consists of the House of Representatives and the Senate, which together form the United States Congress. The Constitution grants Congress the sole authority to enact legislation and declare war, the right to confirm or reject many Presidential appointments, and substantial investigative powers.

And the Judicial Branch (from http://www.whitehouse.gov)

Article III of the Constitution, which establishes the Judicial Branch, leaves Congress significant discretion to determine the shape and structure of the federal judiciary. Even the number of Supreme Court Justices is left to Congress — at times there have been as few as six, while the current number (nine, with one Chief Justice and eight Associate Justices) has only been in place since 1869. The Constitution also grants Congress the power to establish courts inferior to the Supreme Court, and to that end Congress has established the United States district courts, which try most federal cases, and 13 United States courts of appeals, which review appealed district court cases.

Ok, So we have a Legislature to make laws and declare war if needed, a President and company to oversee the enforcement of the law, to regulate and over see foreign policy, and to command and lead the STANDING military forces and policy. (you know my opinion on that already.......) and a Judiciary system to try cases, and otherwise, apply the punishments and applications of the laws in court.

Ok, so that is basically the gist of the system.

As Americans, (sorry for all you out there who aint, just bear with me) we are under this law by mere birth, or by choice if you immigrated.

As Christians however, we can't just look at whatever set of laws we are stuck with and call it God-approved. God may have allowed it, but we know from scripture that not everything that God allows, does God approve. David and Bathsheba, for example.

So we are forced to ask, as Christians, is this system Biblical? Do we really believe the Bible speaks to this area, and how we should set it up? Do we? Well, if we really do, and really believe the Bible is totally sufficient, we should believe the Bible has plenty to say about government and how to set it up.

So the Bible should have examples of our type of government, right? I mean, it was almost (or maybe just a hair closer) God inspired and on par (gasp, did I say that??) with.... Scripture! (there, I said what everybody else was thinking but not wanting to say....)

So, I went looking to the Bible to see what it said concerning our form of government, and the evidence I found for it was rather.... non existent. Let’s go to the classic text for the role of government - Romans 13.  

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Ok, so he is supposed to execute God's wrath upon those who do evil, or in other words, give the crooks the due punishment for their crooked ways.

Then it goes on to say that the government can get involved in foreign policy, regulate taxes, get involved in foreign policy, and declare war on those who need a good whoppin.

Or does it?

It says we can make new laws for social order, as we see fit, to help lead us towards a Godly society.

Or does it?

God says in Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you."

Well, some say, just because the Bible doesn't say it, doesn't mean that we can't do it. I mean, after all, that was then, and this is now. Things have changed a bit. We are no longer a Theocracy.

So is the Bible sufficient or isn't it? Do we really believe that God spoke to us on that issue? Or do we really believe that God left us in the dark, just this once, to figure out how things were supposed to be done?

Do we? Or are we willing to face that fact that God might have had an opinion or two on what we should do.

So have things changed? What has changed then? Has God's nature changed? We know that can't happen.

“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).

Has the nature of man changed? Um, Don't think so.

Has God's word changed? Well, If the Bible is God's word, and we know God can't change, then therefore his word can't change.

Has our circumstances changed?
Well, if God is the same, his word is the same, man is the same, and circumstances really don't affect moral issues, then what about God's system has changed?

Our covenant has changed, and now Christ is our high priest and sacrifice, but from what we see from scripture, the sacrificial system didn’t affect the governmental system in the OT, and God didn’t say that it changed after Christ died in the NT.

I think it hasn't.

Does God no longer rule over us and keep us and take care of us?

Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

So, if that is the case, what does the Bible say about government? I mean, after all, God doesn't pull Moses, or Jeremiah, or Isaiah, or any other prophet aside one day, and give them the inside scoop on exactly how to set up a government.

Or does he?

If we mosey back to (guess!) the Old Testament, we find that - oh fancy that! - God actually did set up a system of government.

Ah, you mean the kings - right?

Well, maybe, but God made it pretty clear to Samuel, that when the people wanted a king like everybody else, that they were turning away from God.

1 Samuel 8:4-9
Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

Ok, so God made it pretty clear that having a king, to "judge us like all the nations" was turning away from God. If God says having a person up there with that much power, is turning away from him, I would guess he means it.

Also note what the Israelites said. "Like all the nations".
The very fact that everybody but God's people were doing something, and we know that everybody else was not serving God, that would be an automatic turn-off for me.

But hey, there were kings who followed God and did great good in Israel! Look at David.... and....and...

So if we do things in a way that God doesn't like, in a way that somehow has some good effects, does it all of a sudden becomes acceptable to God? Is God pragmatic? Whatever works goes?  

Well, we don't see that in scripture. And remember, as Christians, the Bible must be our sole text book on how to live life that is pleasing to God.

So, what is left?

Well, you have to back up even farther in time, to Moses (Oh, I guess God did pull him aside. Whoops).

We see a very interesting form of government. We see, kinda as we know it, a judicial system, and judicial system only.

We see only Moses, and captains of fifties, hundreds, etc., set up to judge the cases brought to them by the people, and they applied God's law and his commands to the cases brought to them by the people.

And they set up taxes and trade with foreign countries and made new laws.......

Well, actually, they didn't. All they did was apply God's law to the lives of the people, and apply God's just punishment to those who deserved it.

Hey, that sounds familiar..... Let’s go back to Romans 13.

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

In the context of what Moses did, that now makes a heap of sense. God, though the judges of Israel, executing his wrath upon them that do wrong.

But, what about all the things that.....

That we have in our Constitution that we don't see in the Bible? Well, I guess they have to be chucked. God said don't add or take away from my law. I guess that is pretty clear.

   Exodus 18:19-23
 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

So, just a judicial system, to apply the judgments that God laid out, with no making new laws, or regulating......anything?

Well, that is all I see from scripture, and I am trying to operate completely from Scripture, since I believe that Scripture is completely sufficient.

The more I think about it, what are new laws for? Are God's laws not good enough? Has things changed?

Wait.... we already went over that.

The more I think, the more I lean towards having God’s laws he laid out and God’s laws alone. NO other laws officially on the “lawbooks” of the government.

Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

People start arguing right there. They say we need more laws to keep people safe. Traffic laws, or hunting regulations, for instance. We need to have these regulations set in place so that way evil man will be restrained from doing wrong and wiping out either people or animal populations.

But you know, God didn’t do that did he? In all the wicked nations in the OT, God didn’t go in and tell the good guys to go in and make new laws to keep all the bad guys in check. He either told them to wipe them out, or go evangelize to them. Yet for some reason, in our country, we as a Christian people think it is the Christian thing to do to go and make laws to keep the evil people from doing evil things like abortion, or gay marriage and such.

So do we believe God might have got it right? Or do we believe that maybe we got the one-up on God, and the way it was carried out then was old hat, and what we do today is the new in-method on going towards a Godly society? Do we? Are we really willing to look only to scripture for our method of government?

As I have thought about it, the reason we make laws other that what God specifically gave us, seems to me, is because we think we can have a civil society full of wicked men with wicked hearts, that are not following God, and not suffer consequences in our society and immediate surroundings.

I am going to say that again, because this is huge, and it is not just the heathens out there believing them. It is the mainline big-wig Christian reformed leaders of today.

The reason we make laws other that what God specifically gave us, seems to me, is because we think we can have a civil society full of wicked men with wicked hearts, that are not following God, and not suffer consequences in our society and immediate surroundings.

We think that we can have wicked men, and if we merely have good traffic laws, we will somehow escape the negative effects of having evil men doing evil things, and killing people by reckless driving. We somehow think if we have good hunting regulations, (and you can define “good” any way you please) we will escape the negative side effects of having evil men doing evil things, and wiping out animals populations uselessly.

God didn’t (and doesn’t) think that is the way to handle it. Why do we have the gumption to think that we somehow know better?


We rant and rave over how bad our government is now, but we don't realize that the founding fathers, not knowing what was coming, and in my opinion, not taking scripture into account, set up a system that was radically unBiblical from the get-go.

I am going to make a statement that will probably go against most American’s grain. The more I study the actual debates of the founding fathers, and what they said, and why they said they said what they said, I conclude that the founding fathers of the United States set up as secular a nation as communist Russia. The only difference is that ours had effects that allowed us to be free and worship God as we saw fit. Nowhere in any discussions, any debates, or any arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention, was the Bible as an even remotely important document.

I know for years we have been told that our founding fathers were Christians, and how they made a system of government based on their beliefs of God and man, and so thus we have fully Christian form of government.

Well, if you have ever read the stuff the founders wrote, and said, and published, you find that what they actually said and tried to do and make, was in its essence, completely secular. I know it is a shock to most, but go read the Federalist Papers, Antifederalist Papers, Articles of Confederation, etc., and anything that actually reports what they said and did, and you might be in for a surprise.

What might also surprise you, is how off beat some of the big names you always hear about. For instance, James Madison was a massive influence on the Constitution, and he had ideas that basically were heading back towards the system in Britain they just left.

Anyway….

Is having the ability to obey God freely in a government the same as having a Godly government? So maybe our system isn’t quite the Biblical example, but look how much good we have done with our country! If we have freedom, and we are free (or were free) to obey God as we pleased, isn’t that pleasing God?

 So, can we do something that God didn’t say we can do, to hope that we might get the same results as if we had done it the way he did? In other words, does the end justifies the means?

Sorry to say, but I don’t think so. God in several cases in the OT shows us he cares about not only what he tells us to do but how he told us to do it.

Yes, I know America has been the most free nation, physically and spiritually, since Israel's time, but that is kinda like the Kings in Israel - A method that is not God's plan, that happened to produce a few benefits we like at the same time.

So, we see from scripture that a judicial type of system was what God had set up, but an Executive and Legislative branch were not set up, and both seem to contradict principles of government that God set up.

So I believe that a Biblical system of Government, is where a judicial set-up of fifties, thousands, etc., applies the application of God’s law on the situations brought to him from everyday life, and deals out justice as dictated by the case law and specific commandments of God’s law. Nothing more, nothing less.

Man is free to do as he wills, inside of what God allows, and he is judged when he goes outside of the laws God sets out. Period.

I am going to wrap this up (finally, sorry it has been so long) with a paraphrase from Frederic Bastiat.

“Now that busybodies and do-gooders have inflicted so many systems upon society, let them try freedom, since that is having faith in God.”


So, to answer the question I posed in the title, the reason I will not be voting, is that by voting (for officials and posts other than what is explicitly shown in scripture), I believe a person is saying that they think the system they are in is Biblical. Let me explain. By voting, you say.

A.    The system (of the Constitution) is Biblical.
B.     That the office of a president, senator, etc., is Biblical.
C.     That by voting for a president, senator, etc., you can move your nation towards a society that is pleasing to God.

 I believe, by what I have shown, that those are unbiblical statements, with an unbiblical thesis, and because of that, I will not vote.

I will get the Gospel out.

The Gospel, and only the Gospel, can ever change a country. Not a new political leader who just might give us our guns and not kill as many babies.

The world, not just America, needs the Gospel. Not a political leader at the top to do things God isn’t pleased with. Mormon or Muslim. Doesn’t matter. Not a bunch of guys making laws that God didn’t make. I believe that is not what God wants.

I would love y’alls opinion on all this. This is based totally from what I have seen from scripture, and have pieced these theories and arguments together by my own thoughts, so I would love other scriptural inputs from you guys. I have tried to make this completely from scripture, and from scripture alone. Please share any scriptures you know that would share light on this subject.

 





 

21 comments:

  1. Woah. This is an awesome post, David. It's not something that I've ever really sat down and thought about much, but you're spot on. I've often envied America because of its "Bible-based" foundations, however you have thrown so much light on this that I can see now it is really not that Biblical. This was an eye-opener, and I have to say that I agree with you entirely.

    I now envy the fact you have a choice of whether or not to vote: voting is compulsory in Australia. :P

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    1. Hey Bushy, glad you dropped by. :) I was wondering while I typed this if this would even remotely have any connection to your civil and poitical life, since I know it is a completely different ball game over there.
      Well, you have an even greater opportunity to make an impact by not voting, or vote for all of the choices, or some other idea to completely screw up your "say" in the matter. Of course that is, if you really want to raise a rumpus. ;)
      You don't mind me calling you Bushy, now do you? It sure is a lot easier to write. :P
      I am glad you enjoyed it and found it enlightening. It sure has been an eye-opener for me. Get the word out - please? *begging face*

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    2. Oh, and I spent my day far more enjoyably than voting. I went and ate a heap of fried food and went shooting a new gun. A far more interesting and profitable day in my opinion.

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    3. True yes, our governments are both run very differently (and I'm not very politically minded at all so I barely know how they run my own country o.O) but the general principle of what you're saying still applies. I don't believe coming under the monarchy (such as a king or queen) is totally unBiblical (if God didn't think He could work through it, He never would have said yes to the people of Samuel's day) however everything beyond that - such as different government parties, prime ministers, voting, etc. etc. - isn't recorded anywhere in God's Word, and those aspects of "government" are then unBiblical. If you look at today's government, truly, you either have to a. choose the lesser of two evils, or b. choose not to choose. Yeah. Basically what you said. :D

      *cough* Well, considering I filled out the paperwork wrong last year and something went amiss and I got my vote mailed back to me, you could be onto something there with that suggestion. ;) This coming from someone who would love to be a nobody who doesn't exist as far as the government is concerned though...

      I very much like being called Bushy; it is my most common nickname, so you're very welcome to use it! :D

      I actually have got the word out - I shared your post to my Google+ stream and got some... interesting responses. ;) Not everyone is going to agree, but hey: I thought it was worth sharing. :D

      And good for you! Fried food and new guns are a lot more productive, especially the latter - defending your country; patriotism, and... all that. ;D

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  2. I think you hit the nail on the head! I've not considered all aspects of this topic, mainly since I'm not old enough to vote, which is no excuse. I think I agree with everything you brought up, but I need more time to consider this area, and I know that whole books have/can address some very miniscule topics of this disscusion. (I do believe in voting, but Biblical voting, with Biblical systems, etc.).

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    1. That is a good point there, Lumberjack. The act itself of voting is nothing more than getting the opinion of the people on a decision, which I believe is Biblical. Voting isn't the problem, it is what we are voting for.
      For instance, if we voted on judges, you can bet I would vote! But voting on various laws and personages that are completely outside the boundaries that scripture laid out, is completely out, as far as I see it.
      Thanks for swingin by!

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  3. P.S. I am looking forward to the next post in this series entitled "Why I Won't be letting the IRS steal my money" ;) (No Pressure) :)

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  4. Do you really want Obama in office again? Don't you think that even Mitt Romney would be better then him? God has given us the ability to vote, and I think that we should use that to try, at least, to start turning our country back to Him. We have a say in it. Yes, our government is bad, but do you want it to get worse? Just because you don't like how it is now, or even how it was in the beginning, do you really want it to keep going down hill? We aren't voting for a pastor.
    By voting, we do not confirm the statements that you made at the end of your post.

    Romans 13:1-2
    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

    Jeremiah 29:7
    And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the Lord for it; for in its peace you will have peace.

    Matthew 22:21b
    And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

    It sounds like you think that we can only do things that come from the Bible. So that would mean that you could not shoot your guns (which I know you love doing) because the Bible has NOTHING to say about guns at all! I do believe that everything we do should be founded on God's Word, but I do not think that we are free only to do those things stated explicitly in the Bible. I think there are many things that are agreeable to God's Word that He does not explicitly state in the Bible. I like to volunteer at a pregnancy care center, but God does not tell me in His Word to go and do that exact thing. And yet there are many principles in the Bible that teach me to be kind, compassionate, and caring, so that is how I follow out those commands. I also believe that there are many principles that teach me that voting is a good thing.

    Albert Mohler says:
    "It’s Not Really About Politics
    Christians must never see political action as an end, but only as a means. We can never seek salvation through the voting booth, and we must never look for a political messiah. Nevertheless, Christians do bear a political responsibility, established in love of God and love of neighbor. We are rightly concerned about this world, but only to a limited extent. Our main concern is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Being in the world but not of the world has never been easy. The 2012 election underlines the challenges we now face and the responsibilities we dare not neglect."
    You can read the whole article here:
    http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/11/07/aftermath-lessons-from-the-2012-election/

    And another thing. Do you think that our country is in bad shape? If so, don't you want to help it get better? You can help our country get back on track by voting the worst people out of office. There is nothing unbiblical about that.

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    1. Ok, lets see if I can fit this in a comment, or will be forced to make a whole post on it. :)
      I will try to answer all facets of your comment - I hope.
      As for doing this only in the Bible. I still say we can only do things in the Bible, or maybe to clarify, only do things that the Bible allows in principle. To use the gun example, the Bible makes it clear that I am to defend my family, so I practice shooting to be ready in case I need to defend myself or my family. Or to be ready to provide for the family, so I practice with rifles for hunting, etc. Again, based solely on scripture. If at any point we say the Bible doesn't address any area, we might as well chuck the whole Bible, salvation and all. So to say that I can't shoot because guns aren't in scripture, is saying that you can't take dominion and use technology.
      More coming soon.......

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  5. Hi David,
    I actually strongly disagree with you. I believe that Christians, more than anyone else, should be involved in voting and politics. I don't really have time to go through all of my reasoning for this, but I do think there is strong Biblical support for this belief.
    Here is a quote from my American Government, "If godly people will not involve themselves in their civic responsibilities, then we can never have the hope of living in a land that is characterized by righteousness. Godly citizens bring the righteousness of God to bear upon their society by doing their civic duty."

    ~Hannah~

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  6. Hey David,
    I am working on a reply to this, just taking some time to formulate and consolidate my thoughts. Great discussion starter!
    @ Priscilla, I think Romney wouldn't have been a whole lot better than Obama. I did vote, but not for either one of those candidates. I'll try to explain the relationship of how Christians can vote (not for a major candidate) and still make a difference.

    Tyler

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    1. Yeah, I don't really think he would be either. In fact, I didn't mean to to have those first two sentences in this post at all:)

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  7. IN TWO PARTS, Blogger only allows 4,096 characters in a comment.

    Here are just a few thoughts I had for response. I could do more, but will keep it short and start with this.
    Real quick let me clarify that I don't, (and didn't) have the notion the Constitution is on par with Scripture. Using the extreme opposite of one's argument is generally not the best place to build one's own argument. With that set aside:

    "Ok, so he is supposed to execute God's wrath upon those who do evil, or in other words, give the crooks the due punishment for their crooked ways.
    Then it goes on to say that the government can get involved in foreign policy, regulate taxes, get involved in foreign policy, and declare war on those who need a good whoppin. Or does it?"

    On the matter above, I agree, and disagree. We have many laws that are un-Biblical or unnecessary. But, there are many laws that I see that are actually direct implications from the Ten Commandments and Scripture. For example, DUI or road-rage traffics laws are there to protect life (and those who are innocent) from those who foolishly drive angrily and while drinking "strong drink." I can see the basis for this law from the sixth commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and also Jesus' commandment "to love one's neighbor." I will come back to this in a moment.

    Before I do, I want to mention that, according to Romans 13, the role and jurisdiction of government is to protect the "good" from those who do evil (and punish the evildoers). "For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good." The government is protecting the "good" from those who do evil.

    Back to the sixth commandment. Each commandment has a positive and opposite direct implication. If it's wrong to steal, then the implied opposite is that owning and keeping private property is fine and right. If it is wrong to bear false witness, then other speech that is honest, true, and not perverse is right. Or there can be negative opposites as with the fifth commandment to honor one's parents. The negative opposite is that it's wrong to dishonor. So if it's wrong to kill, then the implied opposite is that life is valued and worth preserving. So if reckless drunk driving is a terror to life, then there is legitimate merit to "make" a law against it. And so on...

    So when laws like (fill in the blank) are made, they are not adding to God's law, but are just direct implications of God's law. I'm not giving an excuse for every law we have, but there are laws those in authority can make that are not un-Biblical. It's true that laws--"new" or "old"--cannot fix human nature. What I'm saying is some of these "new laws," per se, are from the old.

    Let's use two of the amendments from the Bill of Rights for another quick example. Amendments 5 and 6 address fair trials, private property, and criminal cases. See Lev. 19:15 and Ex. 20:15-16.

    Oh, and as far as taxes go, there are taxes found in the Bible in the Old Testament! A poll tax (or head tax) is found in Ex. 30:11-16 and a tithe in Lev. 27:32. The head tax was a tribute tax to God. (Remember, God was at the top of Israel's structure of government. He's still top today for all governments in a similar way, but that's another issue.) "By means of this tax, the people of Israel placed themselves under God as their King, paying tribute to Him, and gained God's protecting care" R.J. Rushdoony. I also don't see scripture explicitly condemning taxes, see Rom 13:7.

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  8. PART II of III

    "Well, some say, just because the Bible doesn't say it, doesn't mean that we can't do it. I mean, after all, that was then, and this is now. Things have changed a bit. We are no longer a Theocracy.

    So is the Bible sufficient or isn't it? Do we really believe that God spoke to us on that issue? Or do we really believe that God left us in the dark, just this once, to figure out how things were supposed to be done?"

    The Bible is sufficient, but many times there are things that are not directly addressed (extreme example: like driving a car) and that it *appears* to be silent on. In those cases there are principals to guide us. Like Sunday school: the Bible doesn't mention Sunday school anywhere, but it does give commands and principals about who is responsible to teach and raise children (parents, not the church). Priscilla touched on this point. What David is expounding on is the "regulative principal."

    "So, we see from scripture that a judicial type of system was what God had set up, but an Executive and Legislative branch were not set up, and both seem to contradict principles of government that God set up."

    I have a couple of questions for this idea. What was Moses' position? Wasn't he commander in chief (Joshua was later), chief justice, diplomat, leader, and lawgiver? Could you see this being an executive position, maybe even a legislative one? Later in the book of Judges is the plurality of judges system still depicted? Or had it moved to one judge in a localized area? Also, when you say something is "un-Biblical" is it also morally wrong (sin)? There are many ways this word can be used (strong vs. weak).

    Just a fact (not necessarily a point, just a fact): the original idea of judges over fifties, hundreds, etc., came from Jethro, not directly from God. It was advice (wise, I should say), with a clause of "if so commanded by God," and the advice was taken. The idea of splitting a workload also appears with Moses giving Joshua command of military matters, and with elders and deacons being appointed in the New Testament.

    "Sorry to say, but I don’t think so. God in several cases in the OT shows us he cares about not only what he tells us to do but how he told us to do it."

    Very true! But there are also times he tells us to do something but doesn't command exactly how. Like showing mercy or evangelizing. There are many ways to show mercy and to love one's neighbor! To determine how we are to do this, we can look to examples, or when none are found, we go back to principals. When I vote for candidates I go by principles found in Jethro's advice (as well as other principles found in the NT).

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  9. "By voting, you say.
    A. The system (of the Constitution) is Biblical.
    B. That the office of a president, senator, etc., is Biblical.
    C. That by voting for a president, senator, etc., you can move your nation towards a society that is pleasing to God.
    I believe, by what I have shown, that those are unbiblical statements, with an unbiblical thesis, and because of that, I will not vote."

    In regards to A: it's not necessarily un-Biblical (although much of the way our current government operates is un-Biblical).

    B: Again, true, this isn't in Scripture, but look at Moses' position, and also how the tribal system worked in Israel. It does reflect a executive and representative approach in organization.

    C: By voting I'm saying that I'm under the form of government that God has ordained--yes, ordained--since He is sovereign and raises up good and evil governments (Rom 13:1). (Granted, our governmental system may be less than ideal, because if there wasn't sin there wouldn't be a need for checks and balances, and we could just have one King.) And He has also given me the opportunity to have a say and participate in the form of government. No I'm not trying to change the morals of the people of our country by voting; that is why we have the gospel. But we still need Godly examples and leaders.

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    1. Ok, sorry this reply took so long. I've been super busy.
      Anyway, I would have to concur with Anna on the point of laws. If we really think that Scripture is sufficient, and those were the laws God gave, why do we need others? He didn't give many different elaborations on how to not murder someone - he just said not to.

      As to voting (for the system) saying that the constitution is Biblical, I would have to say that it is saying that you support it, and therefore, Biblical. Time is support, as I see it. If you spend your time doing something, it means you support whatever you are doing. If you are supporting and continuing to run a system, you obviously think that it is ok for you to be spending your time doing that, therefore Biblical. That is the angle I was coming from.

      Good point however about Jethro. I had forgotten that detail. I still would say that the Mosaic system is the best it gets, since it lines up with the limitations we see in Romans 13. I say we can only go within the bounds of what that text laid out, and can therefore have no other function.

      Thanks for swinging by! So glad to hear about the new feller in your family!

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  10. @ Tyler.... You said....I can see the basis for this law from the sixth commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and also Jesus' commandment "to love one's neighbor, " in reference to DUIs and road rage laws.... But, from what we see biblically in the OT, God just gave the law " Do not kill" and did not make laws for every single way that you could kill someone. He did, however, break the "Do not kill" law into two categories : that of intentional verses unintentional murder. Why do we, as a nation, think we can add to God's laws (ie:abortion or DUI laws)?

    "So when laws like (fill in the blank) are made, they are not adding to God's law, but are just direct implications of God's law." Why do we need these "extra" laws when "do not kill" pretty much covers it??? "


    "I have a couple of questions for this idea. What was Moses' position? Wasn't he commander in chief (Joshua was later), chief justice, diplomat, leader, and lawgiver? Could you see this being an executive position, maybe even a legislative one" Obama, for example, is our CIC, and is making all of his decisions off of himself. (He is in the position of God). Moses, on the other hand, was taking orders from God, leaving God in the proper position and allowing Him to be CIC. God also occupied the position of Chief Justice etc.


    Very true! But there are also times he tells us to do something but doesn't command exactly how. Like showing mercy or evangelizing. There are many ways to show mercy and to love one's neighbor". He does not give us explicit examples of how we must love our neighbor , but He certainly does give us a very good pattern to base our love off of. Same with evangelizing. We have His example to follow. We also should follow His pattern when it comes to government.


    I am not totally convinced of my position , but am just trying to figure it out myself......!

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  11. Hey David, it's been a little while since I checked in. But I wanted to say, I think you've got the right idea here. I don't know whether that means we shouldn't vote, but I'm tracking with you on the Biblical government idea. I do want to share a couple of passages that you may find interesting.

    (1) In Deut. 1:13-18, we can see that the magistrates are to be elected by the constituents of their jurisdictions: "Choose wise, understanding, and knowledgeable men from among your tribes, and I will make them heads over you.’ 14 And you answered me and said, ‘The thing which you have told us to do is good.’ 15 So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and knowledgeable men, and made them heads over you, leaders of thousands, leaders of hundreds, leaders of fifties, leaders of tens, and officers for your tribes.

    16 “Then I commanded your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger who is with him. 17 You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me, and I will hear it.’ 18 And I commanded you at that time all the things which you should do."


    (2) Deuteronomy 17:14-20: “When you come to the land which the Lord your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

    18 “Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children in the midst of Israel."

    Let me know what you think!

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    1. Hey Daniel, thanks for dropping by! It's good to see you back in the cyber world.

      The verses in point 1 are what I was referring to, as what type of judicial system I believe was lined out in Romans 13. Good stuff.

      As for point 2, especially the Deut section, I understand that to be God telling the king to stick within the bounds he is supposed to function within. I don't really care if you call the government official a King, a judge, or a ground squirrel, just so long as the person doesn't go outside of the bounds laid out in Romans 13. The second verse seems to line up with that, telling the king to stick to his matters of judging the cases of the law, and that's about it. Call him what you want, and as long as he pays for it, he can wear what he likes with whatever hat he likes, just so long as he sticks within the bounds of scripture. Kings, Judges, ground-squirrels, titles are up for grabs just so long as he does what God says.

      That would be how I would understand those passages. Thanks for sharing them! I really enjoy and appreciate the whole "sharpening". :)

      What is your opinion on the whole shebang?

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    2. Have to agree with you there on the definition of king. I think the word king throws us off because we have preconceived ideas about what the word means. In reality, I think he would just be like the Supreme Court, only elected.

      I recently have come to reject the idea of a legislature, because who needs to create law when a sufficient one has already been given. Now I am all for councils of magistrates to declare war or elect higher magistrates where Biblical, or to confer on difficult cases. But the idea of a legislature to create law just seems to me to necessarily be either redundant or rebellious, because God hates rulers who rule on their own authority. The idea of the legislature to provide a uniform law for judges to judge by is unnecessary because God has already given us a uniform law (properly interpreted through a New Covenant lens). The magistrates, elected by the people, are directly accountable to the people. Throwing a legislature in there just seems to complicate things. I find it interesting that I can't think of any nations off the top of my head that have employed the Biblical model in recent history. They have either had dynastic monarchies or legislatures.

      I'm undecided as to whether one ought to vote or not. Although the situation is not ideal, I don't know if that means Christians can't participate at all, or should only participate where required, i.e. taxation.

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    3. I agree whole-heartedly about extra laws. They are useless, and shows that we want to make ourselves God, by making the laws. Whoever makes the laws is God, and if we want to make laws, we have to be willing to at least admit that we think that we need a separate law where God didn't have one. Just because they are "based" off of God's laws doesn't mean that we can make a law that wasn't there before and have it be Ok. I mean, God did say whoever adds or takes away from His law was in big trouble (paraphrased :))
      Excellent point about viewing the content of the OT laws through the new covenant lens - a most proper and important clarification, or we will be confusing and will be accused of being legalists and not accepting the covenant of grace.
      Yeah, outside of Israel, I have never heard of any nation ever doing it, and then again, I have never heard of any nation that wasn't doing that form of government last for any serious amount of time in the scope of history. Nations that are following God will never fall, and basically every big regime or nation has always in some point of its span turned it's back on God, and fell.
      Also notice that every nation that has ever fallen always starts by taking far more power and doing far more things than what is Biblically allowed. Maybe we should take notice of that.

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